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Lader din model S også langsomt - så bliv en del af gruppesøgsmålet mod Tesla | Tesla Forum

burns
burns Oct 13 '21
Citat fra Ledsager

Har lige hentet seneste “opdatering” 48.37.8. Er der nogen der har erfaringer med den fx mht ladetid?

Læste at en med 2020.48.37.8 ikke kunne supercharge mere. TMS 2015/12. Tesla Owners Danmark for 1 time siden.

HJJ
HJJ Oct 14 '21
Jeg ladede i Slagelse i går uden problemer med 2020.48.37.8
(Bortset fra ladehastigheden) S70D 12/2015
cth
cth Oct 14 '21

2020.32.21 hedder min nuværende... hvorfor har nogen en helt anden version?

Bestemmes det af biltype og alder på bil?

PeterE
PeterE Oct 14 '21
Citat fra cth

2020.32.21 hedder min nuværende... hvorfor har nogen en helt anden version?

Bestemmes det af biltype og alder på bil?

Det får du 500 svar på om lidt, og du kan ikke bruge de fleste til ret meget. Forslag: Opret en tråd med det emne, så det ikke overtager 'samtalen' om ladehastighed :) 

webercarbmann
webercarbmann Oct 15 '21

14 dages udsættelse fik Tesla 1/10-21 for at afgive svar til retten, så det må være i dag der er dagen hvor de kommer med et svar til retten.   De får nok 14 dages udsættelse igen. :(

HemligNemlig
HemligNemlig Oct 15 '21
Tror man normalt tæller i hverdage/arbejdsdage, så de har nok nogle dage endnu.
Ledsager
Ledsager Oct 18 '21

Tesla har givet svar. Nu afventer vi hvad retten herefter beslutter: Flere argumenter fra parterne, udpegning af en sagkyndig, mægling eller??

Gustavsfar
Gustavsfar Oct 19 '21

Hvad har de svaret?

Ledsager
Ledsager Oct 19 '21

Det kan jeg ikke gengive her. Hvis du er en del af søgsmålet går jeg ud fra at der kommer noget fra advokaten om det om det på den FAQ der er adgang til på Dropbox. Men det er vist ikke at afsløre for meget, at konstatere at de ikke er enige i anklagen.

Gustavsfar
Gustavsfar Oct 19 '21

Det bliver dog svært for tesla at modbevise et faktum som er yderst veldokumenteret. Hvis denne sag ikke vindes af de berørte ejere så bliver verden af lave i fremtiden for alle forbrugere af iot. 

KimT
KimT Nov 4 '21

wk057's senest kommentar omkring ladehastighed https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/6079805/

TL;DR - Tesla slowed fast charging on pretty much every car produced before about 2017.

Will have to go back through this and do some specific responses at some point.

Suffice it to say, it turned out that fast charging was very bad for the 60/70/85 packs. It's an odd phenomenon also... as in, the damage done is virtually undetectable even at the cell level until it's too late. Once it's too late, the cell's IR goes up exponentially to the point where it just cant charge/discharge anymore (the failure section is over the course of about 100 cycles).

This actually eventually happened to all of my cells I had under supercharge-equivalent long-term testing, and I've sent some of them to a lab that was interested in the results to breakdown and analyze why this actually happened. Preliminary findings show some sort of insulating/isolating material is built up during high stress charges. Once that buildup crosses a threshold, further charging spreads it more quickly across the plates until the cell reaches the point where charging doesn't supply enough energy to produce/release this insulator. The actual material may be some additive that is precipitated or otherwise chemically produced. I don't really know. I'm also not a chemist. While I have a decent understanding of the principals involved, my terms are probably off here. Still waiting on more details (probably won't get any more info until next year).

The odd thing is that my own testing shows this to be very random. In my testing the first cells didn't show signs of the issue until well over 500,000 equivalent fast charge miles, and some reached around 900,000 fast charge miles. On the other hand, I have 20kW-equiv test cells with almost 2,000,000 miles of equivalent charges showing under 20% degradation, tapered to the point where I'd be surprised if they ever even fail... so fast charging is definitely a factor.

Tesla seems to have discovered this potential issue, ran the numbers on their end, and came up with new thresholds and metrics for how much fast charging to allow and at what levels on these "legacy" chemistries. Since about late 2019, the BMS firmware of all of the pre-100 pack vehicles has an algorithm to calculate fast charge and taper rates based on historical usage data. I've dissected it as best possible from a reverse engineering standpoint, and while the exact thresholds that cause a substantial decrease in charging speed can vary greatly based on different metrics, the maximum rates and best taper rates are much lower than what they could have been previously even on the best packs.

The worst possible output of the new function comes out to about 1/4C CC rate. (So, for an "85" pack that'd be about 19 kW since ~75 kWh real capacity / 4). The worst I've seen in the wild maxes out at 42 kW. This seems excessive.

What's odd (telling?) is that the old charge rate code section is what is used to output the estimated charge time remaining on these packs, even as of the latest code I've looked at (few months ago). This is why, for example, an 85 will start at say, 50 minutes remaining, and 90 minutes later say 20 minutes remaining. Estimates based on the real power data would be more accurate, but would show things like 2+ hours remaining on the screen of some of the worst impacted vehicles... which would probably be worse for PR than showing 30 minutes for 90 minutes.

Anyway... IMO, I think Tesla is being a little too CYA on this one. With the older charge profile, even under the worst conditions in my tests, cells didn't show issues until well past what you'd expect the life of a normal vehicle to be. So people still on older firmware charging faster on their 85s are not likely in any serious danger of having problems. (Barring unrelated BMS issues described elsewhere.)

To be very clear, the issues posed by this are not catastrophic failures (like fire, shorts, explosions, etc). The failures are essentially full degradation down to single digit % original capacity... which would never even happen in a real car anyway since the BMS would freak the heck out long before it got to that point.

Keep in mind that there are other minor factors that Tesla may be taking into account, such as the wear on older vehicle hardware (fast charge contactors or contacts in charge port connectors, for example) that I'm not fully aware of the details on. These definitely have an impact on the safety of fast charging, and there's no technical way for Tesla to measure these items in firmware to determine condition... so I could see them using a low-end real world test metric for that input data, resulting in lower charge rates.

I think Tesla should undo this particular change, since it impacts the usability of older vehicles greatly. I don't think they will, however, for a variety of reasons... not the least of which is that I'd guess it presently has a net positive effect on their bottom line.

 

webercarbmann
webercarbmann Nov 6 '21
Quote from Ledsager

Det kan jeg ikke gengive her. Hvis du er en del af søgsmålet går jeg ud fra at der kommer noget fra advokaten om det om det på den FAQ der er adgang til på Dropbox. Men det er vist ikke at afsløre for meget, at konstatere at de ikke er enige i anklagen.

Nogen nyheder på trapperne?   Har kigget i dropbox mappen og der er ikke lagt noget op.  

webercarbmann
webercarbmann Nov 10 '21

Så kom Tesla Bjørn til at lave 1000km challenge med Millenium Falken.  Det går som forventet.  Tak Bjørn. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVx6rCvvNNk

KimT
KimT Nov 10 '21

Han snakker i den efterfølgende video omkring problemet : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkbuktuPWvE

cth
cth Nov 11 '21

Ja han snakker utrolig meget ham Bjorn.

Han kunne godt skære videoer ned til det halve og stadig give samme budskab.

Forummets indlæg er redigeret af cth Nov 11 '21
Kiefer
Kiefer Nov 11 '21

sth: Helt enig, jeg opgav hans videoer for mange år siden :)

 

KimT
KimT Nov 11 '21

TL:DW - han ender med kun at lade til ca. 35% for han gider ikke vente længere, og så tage de hyppigere stop - og give den fuld gas mellem stop. Turen ender med at tager 11:50 - dvs. samme tid som en IONIQ 28kW/I-Pace

Forummets indlæg er redigeret af KimT Nov 11 '21
SuneH
SuneH Nov 12 '21

TB er selv inde på at det ikke er "realistisk" den måde han kører på: lade til 40% og ankomme med 1-2% på den næste. De fleste lader vel op til 60-70% og ankommer med mindst 10%. Og vil gerne springe en eller flere SuC over. Så i praksis tager det endnu længere end det gør for TB. 

Kiefer
Kiefer Nov 12 '21

Ok, bed det lige i mig og så videoen. Det mest underholdende er ca. 9:45 inde i filmen.


Han spiser en dobbelt franskhotdog, og kommer med kommentaren: "real meat this time, no vegan shit" LOL :)

Lige inden, sætter han bilen til at lade og jubler over den lader med 130KW, men han når ikke engang at juble færdig inden den dropper ladehastigheden markant...

Det er jo sådan alle os andre har oplevet vores biler i flere år nu. Havde en tur til KBH fra Hinnerup i går. Kørte til Slagelse, ladede op, så jeg kunne nå til Køge, ladede op så jeg kunne nå til indre KBH (amager strandpark) og derefter retur til Køge, ladede op så jeg kunne nå til Slagelse, stoppede herefter i Middelfart så jeg kunne nå helt retur til Hinnerup. 

En samlet tur på ca. 620km krævede 5 ladestop for at optimere tidsplanen, det er bare ikke godt nok længere...

/Martin

Ledsager
Ledsager Nov 15 '21

Lidt nyt til deltagerne i Gruppesøgsmålet: Kig i jeres Dropbox

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